My post yesterday about the Louis C.K. challenge brought me a lot of heat.
The fellow “marketers” got it and LOVED the content. The others… well, let’s just say it was the first time in my life I was called a “suit” :)
So I’d like to spend a minute going over the key to finding that delicate balance between making more money and pissing off your biggest fans.
The Balance
The balance between lining your pockets and keeping your raving fans happy is always the biggest challenge for entrepreneurs. And I think it’s where the entire “marketing” world went off the rails a few years ago.
Marketers started realizing how much more you can make with compelling, complimentary upsell offers – they went overboard and forgot about the key ingredient: “complimentary”.
So they just starting throwing together pitch after pitch. I remember ordering a popular product from an infomercial (I do this to see their offers, upsells and packaging). And they proceeded to offer me not 1, not 2, but NINE upsells.
That’s right 9 upsells!
Did those nine upsells make the company more money? Yes, I’m sure it did.
But at what risk?
Now, the customer is likely agitated and annoyed. But these companies only thought about things “short term”. And while they had some good months and even years – the music has started to fade. But these companies only thought about things “short term”. And while they had some good months and even years – the music has started to fade.
KEEPING customers (and keeping them happy), my friend, is where the REAL money is. That’s it. It’s everything.
It’s SO MUCH easier and less expensive to keep them happy and resell them – than it is to go out and find new customers. And it’s a more fun and fulfilling business to run. I still have clients buying my products over 12 years later – and believe me, it doesn’t suck.
So, back to my point regarding upsells and customer happiness.
Properly placed upsells will bring in more money (Yes, that is still the goal of running a business. What you do with the money is up to you).
There is always a percentage of your buyers who want MORE. MORE of your products and programs. MORE training. MORE access to you.
You have an obligation to your treat your customers like gold – but you also have an obligation to your business. And by not offering more products for people to purchase (who want to purchase) and by not making your company as profitable as it can be (legally and ethically, of course), I’d go as far as saying it’s irresponsible.
And yes, even if you offer just one upsell it will upset a few people. That’s just part of the territory. There will be people who hate anything that even smells “commercial”. They hate Starbucks, they hate Apple, and they despise anything that actually makes a profit.
Since you can NEVER please everybody – don’t even try to. It’s that simple.
Here are some simple rules to keep the balance between bringing in more money and keeping your fans happy…
THE COMPLIMENTARY RULE
The first rule is your upsells, cross-sells or downsells must compliment your original offer.
Just because you have the resell rights to a copywriting video, it does NOT mean you offer it to customers who just bought your fitness program.
Your fitness program can have upsells related to more workouts, nutrition, meal plans, recipes, flexibility and even mindset.
You would think that’s common sense – but believe me, I’ve seen it happen too many times.
THE PLAY FAIR RULE
If your original product was supposed to give customer a specific benefit, your upsells should not be a key missing ingredient.
It would be like Louis C.K.’s original video only have the joke “set ups” and the upsell video would have all the punchlines. Ok, that’s an extreme example – but you get the point.
Another example is in the “how to make money” world.
The original product might be “how to make money with Facebook” and the upsell is “Well, the program only shows you how to setup a page, not really make money. If you want to make money, you have to buy this extra component for it to work”.
That is how you get refunds, cancellations, chargebacks and a group of people who think you are a sleaze ball. All of that effort you spent GETTING the buyer is now ruined.
Sure, maybe the don’t cancel. But the chances of building a long-term relationship where they will not only buy again, the would also refer other customers – is virtually dead. And that’s a terrible way to build a business.
THE IRRESISTIBLE RULE
You must also make your offers irresistible.
Packaging $500 worth of advanced training products for a one-time fee of $99 or even $50 is irresistible.
Packaging $500 of training products for $450 is NOT such a great bargain.
The person just bought a product – so now is the time to deliver a deal-of-a-lifetime they will find it almost impossible to say no to.
THE RULE OF 3
Now, I’m going to start with the usual cop-out phrase of “you must always test first”, but I’ve found that using a maximum of 3 upsells works best.
Any more and it upsets customers and when you have less, you are leaving money on the table.
NOTE: There is a special sequence I teach in my “Ryan Lee Method” course, along with my best-converting offers – so if you want the advanced training on upsells, click here.
There you have it.
Some simple rules to help you find the balance between profits, happy customers and a pretty kick-ass business.
ADD YOUR COMMENTS BELOW!
Ryan,
I’m sorry but I didn’t understand why do you say that you’ve upset your biggest fans… You start by saying that your “fellow “marketers” got it and LOVED the content”… so who did you upset?
And what does it have to do with up-sells?
Thanks,
Bruno Coelho
Hey Bruno,
I didn’t say my biggest fans were upset – it was mostly other people who found me from twitter.
Check out some of the comments from yesterday blog post and you’ll see :)
Ryan
I don’t understand why people think that “Money = Evil”.
Why don’t they see it, as Ken Blanchard sees it: “Money is the applause you get for the Value you create”?
It’s because they misremember the that “The LOVE of money is the root of all evil”. People seem to forget the first bit.
I HATE upsells! They make me less likely to buy again from someone and not trust them. Don’t give me useless info and act like you’re giving me a deal, just give me quality content at a reasonable price.
Hey Shelly,
There are always people who don’t like upsells. But it all comes down to what your customers think about them.
Ryan
Agreed! We devote a whole planning process with our clients when it comes to putting together their upsell strategy.
Upsell shouldn’t equal sleazy, but helpful.
Thanks Mike.
It should definitely be strategic – not just thrown together.
Ryan
I love upsells! mine, and other marketers as well.
I only have one upsell at the moment, working to add a second, the the third, thank you.
Franck
Hey Franck,
I also like a few upsells, because there are usually some really good deals :)
But then again, I’m always a “cup is 1/2 full” kinda guy.
Ryan
Ryan,
Marketers have traditionally had this attitude similar to the farmers who used up all the nutrients in their soil; farm it and farm it until it is dead.
The massive use of upsells, appropriate or inappropriate, is just one in the line of examples of that.
Of course, then there are those “marketers” who say never to upsell but they aren’t really knowledgeable marketers and will forever limit themselves even if they do have some success.
I agree, I’ve found the 3 to be optimum number in almost every case and I’ve heard others agree (the only ones that I recall now though are the Fortins).
Thanks for another great post.
David
Hey David,
Thanks for the input.
And you made a really good point about the farmer comparisons as well as the marketers who refuse to do any upsells.
Keep rockin’
Ryan
I wear two hats so…speaking as a dairy farmer AND a marketer!! It’s only the foolish farmers who don’t understand that unless you look after your core assets – your land, your stock, and your equipment – you’ll kill your business. I know many farmers who get rid of a cow after 2-3 calvings just because they’ve pushed her to her limits, so she will then get sick. We take the attitude of nurturing our cows, and many go on to give us 6 healthy calves :-)
This attitude is KEY to business building as well. Nurture your ‘assets’ – your relationships with prospects and clients. Listen to what their needs are, and give them what you know can help them. Understand that being pushy gets you a burnt out business. And be OK with knowing that you can be someone with integrity whilst still making money in your business too.
Good posts Ryan
cheers, from the marketer ‘my other hat is dairy farming’ Tanya !
Hey Ryan!
Thanks for an awesome post! I have a quick question, please and hopefully it will help others, as well.
I have a product for Realtors that’s 26 videos that I’ve also turned into mp3′s.
I want to sell the mp3′s for $197 (hopefully that’s an ok price….since 1 closing could bring in 10x that amount or more) and offer the videos as an additional upsell for $100 more, so a total of $297 if they want both the videos and the mp3′s.
Does that sound reasonable (price wise, for the upsell) and is it ok to upsell the same content in a different format?
I guess that was actually 2 questions!
If you have time to answer….thank you!!
If you don’t…or if I’m not really supposed to ask a question here…it’s okay!
Either way you SO ROCK!!!
HAPPY NEW YEAR! I appreciate you and look forward to your stuff every day!
Connie Lowery
Hey Connie,
To give my answer, I’d have to know much more about you, your business, your products and your customers.
That’s why I like to spend 30-60 minutes with each of my clients, so I can get as much information as possible to give the best answer.
Best,
Ryan
One more thing Ryan, in the “Play Fair” theory, you weren’t exaggerating at all, go buy the newest WSO (I think they’re still launched 1 nano second apart? That’s a sad story itself) and you’ll see your theory proven there, if not the next WSO the one after it.
I definitely wasn’t exaggerating on that one :)
Thanks for contributing…
Ryan
Brilliant post, brother! So funny…. In all the years, I have never felled ‘sold’ on anything by you. You manage “The Balance” so well. To me, there is always a genuine reality to what you are offering. Not a ‘sale’ but more like a ‘I truly think you will benefit’ from this…
Your authenticity is something that I think should be added to this blog (or at least read by the folks who will indulge in my comment).
Authentic = Success.
BG
Thanks Brian!
I appreciate all your years of ongoing support.
Keep on rocking in 2012…
Ryan
Great post Ryan-! I really like it when the upsell is not too expensive especially if it’s cheaper than the original product I just bought- it really seems easy to pay just a little more for more products as opposed to paying a lot more for an upsell-
Beverly
Hey Beverly,
You’d be shocked to see how well even MORE EXPENSIVE products can work (in the upsell process)
Ryan
The alternative approach is to show all upsells on your sales page, and that has always appealed to me (eg. Silver $29, Gold $49, Platinum $79 – take your pick).
You are being upfront this way, and there are no surprises. But I suppose it very much depends on your audience.
Having said that I recently purchased something with 2 relevant upsells and have been very happy with it. So there you are, right? wrong? I’ve no idea :)
Hey Quentin,
Those are more product choices (if they are on your sales page). I wouldn’t offer multiple choices on one upsell page as that would muddy the message.
Thanks for your ongoing contributions to this community…
Ryan
Great stuff Ryan! I agree with everything you wrote. I have seen and tested a lot of different upsells and the ones I am most cool with and proud of follow your rules.
Thanks for continuing to be a leader in ethical marketing.
Kyle Battis
Hey Kyle,
Thanks, my man.
You’ve tested TONS of upsells – and it’s good to see I’m on the right track :)
Have a killer 2012.
Ryan
Hi Ryan,
I agree with you 100%!!! These marketers are killing their business, one customer at a time. That’s what I love about what you teach, real, upfront & honest strategies.
What they need to do is put their selves in their customer’s shoes when creating their sales process…
Recently; I purchased a wp plugin, awesome little plugin at that. The purchase came with very thorough training as well however; before I could download my plugin, I was bombarded with an upsell (twice) which was upgraded versions of the plugin itself. Ended up, the two upgraded versions actually performed what the original purchase was “promised” to perform. Needless to say, I requested a refund.
Don’t promise your product will do “whatever”, when the results of the promise is actually in your upsells.
Thank you for all of the great information you share! ~DianiaLee
Hey DianaLee,
I appreciate your comments.
And what you experienced is, unfortunately, what a lot of marketers do. Because they follow one “guru” blindly – and they don’t think about what they are really delivering to their clients.
Ryan
I totally agree Ryan. There HAS to be a balance.
I ordered the $5 Internet Automation video from your post the other day and although I’m sure the content is great (can’t wait to listen!), the upsell plan they implemented could use some serious work if you ask me. After saying no to each upsell, you had to then watch a video and say no again as a sort of ‘double decline’ on it. All that upselling after watching a video of why you need the original program…which had no timer bar and no way to buy before the video was over. It was only in the last maybe minute you could buy. The whole process felt like work.
Honestly, if I had happened on that sales page alone, I would have left immediately as I felt like it just didn’t feel good as a consumer. After going through Lee’s sales process, I am even leery to book the free coaching call. This is not to rag on them at all, just to re-iterate how important it is to be careful with how you market to you customers.
I like the way everything you do and offer is totally upfront. A customer never ever feels like there is something behind the curtain you are trying to pull….
Thanks for being you, and AWESOME!
Hey Amy,
I know Lee is always trying new processes, so that could be one he’s testing now.
It really is a matter of finding that right balance, providing value and yes, making more money too :)
Keep rockin’
Ryan
I agree here, I also bought the product from Lee.
The only reason I moved through the sales process was because you recommended the product Ryan. The upsell process was brutal.
It gave me the feeling, “these guys are just trying to see what else they can sell me”. I know that they make more money with the upsells, but maybe a better approach would be let the main product we bought build trust with us and let us like Lee. The main product is AWESOME.
Once you watch the main videos, you see that Lee is an amazing teacher and offers good info.
He can then send out offers for his other products via email etc down the road, but that upsell process was tough :-) Made me wonder if Lee was really going to give me something or good, or have I just been sold?
Like I said above, the main product is top notch, but the upsell process was giving me some doubts.
On that note, I suggest everyone buy the training. You’ll learn a lot!
Thanks,
Jeremiah
I agree with the other comments about the Automation program’s upsells/downsells – I was so ticked off by the whole process – WAAAYYYY too many and the double decline process of repeating (really repeating? the same video AGAIN) was enough to make me NEVER want to even look at another offer of his. Eegads! It felt like I’d stepped back into the IM time machine to 1.5 yrs ago when every newbie on the block was using all the unrelated offer upsells/downsells they could find – just cuz some guru said it would work. Don’t bring that practice back… IM has moved on & our customers deserve to be treated with respect. Anyone who’s been around even a little bit will see you as a joke – or someone who doesn’t respect their customer’s time. All’s I can say is that the original program better be stellar – or I’m refunding just to give back the nuisance factor. Great way to burn out your list & be out of business. As an affiliate marketer I work hard to build my lists & don’t want to lose them because someone I helped promote begins to abuse that hard-won relationship. Treat people with respect. Give waaayyyy more value than you charge for. Keep your messages focused and related. Your “tribe” will keep coming back, like Lee says, for years.
I bought lee’s $5 deal too and then a few upsells and they are totally worth it. He outlines his upsell and big back end in the automation videos and heaps of pdf’s on upsell 1,2, 3. & thankyou pages plus importantly his results eg: options, initial sale, upsells continuity and totals. Awesome business model, it draws together alot of peices in the puzzle for me.
I’m right on board with Shelly. I am not a fan of direct upsells in the checkout process – regardless of conversion because I feel they could potentially leave an wary taste in the customer’s mouth.*
I’m more into delivering a very solid product and upselling on the back-end. This is why all my products have 200+ day autoresponder sequences.
But if it works for you, go for it!
Hey Ben,
I respect your opinion – and using a follow-up autoresponder is powerful. Again, it’s about finding that balance for your business and your customers.
If it’s working for you – keep on rocking…
Ryan
Another quality article that is right on time as usual…
Thank you Chris.
Have an awesome 2012…
Ryan
Hello Ryan,
This is so very true.
There should be a balance.
In one of my projects I offered an upsell and it accounted for about 30% of my sales, huge for us!!!
Very close to $100,000 in revenue in the first 7 weeks for launching the product. If we didn’t offer that upsell, then that’s 100k we would not have made.
The big takeaway is that the upsell was very very very complimentary to the main product.
You have to remember that when someone has made the BIG decision to buy your main product they are excited about that product and if you offer them a similar product or added value with your upsell you can do very well.
The problem comes when someone has made the mental decision to buy your main product (they have enough like and trust to buy what you are selling) and then you hit them with 9 products, page after page of upsells.
This can set you up to really hurt your lifetime value and the trust with your customer.
Think about it, you are excited about the main product right and you just made that big mental decision to get your card and buy.
You just want to get to the product, but you are now being hit with page after page of upsell offers. This does not make you feel very good about the seller does it?
On the other hand if the seller offers you 1 really great deal in the upsell you may be excited about that and feel like you were rewarded even more for your purchase.
Ok, that’s my rant on the topic from my experience.
Hey Jeremiah,
Congrats on your launch – that’s great!
And you are right with your follow-up comments. It’s a matter of finding the right number. Heck, maybe it’s just 1 upsell for you.
Rock ‘on,
Ryan
Honestly Ryan, to me 3 upsells is even too much (especially if it’s combined with a “downsell” offer).
Here’s my “Official” Upsell Number Chart that I use to decide how many to include :)
1 – Absolutely
2 – Possibly (if it makes sense)
3 – Starting to get annoyed.
4 – Common’ man, just give me the damn product I ordered.
5 – Now I’m pissed.
6 – Now I want my money back, you’re a d-bag and I’m telling everyone how much you suck.
Hey Stu,
The 3 is a total number (1 of them is a downsell). So they might only see 2 offers.
Thanks for always adding quality discussions here.
You rock!
Ryan
Ryan,
With 30 years of traditional and online marketing experience working for my B to B clients, I am entering the info product space, selling B to C. I am trying to build a Marketing Model that includes Lifetime Value of a customer (LTV) Cost Per Lead (CPL), Conversion Rates and ultimately Cost Per Sale or Acquisition cost for my Info product upsell (A membership / coaching continuity program). Do you have any wisdom (of course you always do) to share with respect to the average length of time your members stay in your program (without disclosing LTV) and your Conversion rates from your basic Ryan Lee Program to your upsells.
I am sure your upsell conversion is all over the board depending on the product and the lead source, but overall, can you share the average conversion rate? If this is proprietary and none of my business, please just call me out :)
PS I always ask people a simple question when it comes to the advice business… “Who do you listen to”? This is the most important question of all in my opinion, as we both know there are so many so called experts that should not be in the advice business, especially in Advertising in Marketing. Just know when it comes to Continuity and Membership programs, the answer to the question “who do you listen to”? IS YOU!
Hey Scotty,
First, I appreciate your support.
In regards to length of membership, on average, for most “online membership sites” it’s around 3.5 months. I have different sites and programs – but overall, it’s around 11 months for mine.
Conversion is all over the board as I’m always trying new programs, promotions and copy. Both internal promotion and JVs too.
Best
Ryan
Ryan,
Just a quick thanks for your never ending patience with your replies to your reader’s posts. Even though you are probably half my age LOL, You are a great role model for somebody like me that is new to Online advice and Membership programs. You set the bar high… very high. Thanks for that too. I don’t think I need to do anything to be successful other than watch what you do!
Have a great weekend.
I’ve made a living with upsells and downsells.
I think EVERY product should have at least 2 upsells / downsells. It’s just plain crazy not to. I’ve got reams of numbers to prove it.
If you follow Ryan’s rules, which are very accurate, your customers will have little problem with it.
And here’s the biggest proof.
The average “done right” upsell will result in a 30% plus conversion rate!!!!
If 3 out 10 of your customers thinks it adds value and are willing to pull their money out of their wallet to vote on it, you should do it.
If your upsell is below 20%, somethings wrong with it. Use Ryan’s rules as a troubleshooting checklist.
David
Hello David,
You are spot on with your stats.
I’ve seen the same 30% conversion rates as well, as long as you are offering a really good upsell (something that people really want).
I had 1 out of 3 people taking the upsell offer. The revenue from just the upsell was shocking :-)
Jeremiah
Right on David. There is never a more likely time to make a sale because the customer has already put in his/her cc numbers in and now or that customer has to do is check the box saying ” gimmie the upsell product for $47 that is normally $447″. A certain percentage of buyers will purchase… as sure as Ryan Lee likes Starbucks!
Hey David,
I agree. It’s a massive increase in profits.
I lost literally MILLIONS by not adding upsells sooner.
And yes, I’ve also seen 30% conversions too :)
Ryan
I am s beginner entrepreneur and listening to everything! I believe that balance is the key and knowing and respecting your customer is essential. It certainly is what keeps me coming back! I really am learning a lot and respect honesty in all business and other professions! Thanks for your frankness Ryan!
Thanks for your comments.
It really is about the balance.
It’s possible to provide value, treat people well and STILL make a fortune.
Rock ‘on
Ryan
The up sells have to make sense to me. Sometimes I find more value in the down sells than the original product purchase…
One product I bought many months ago I asked for a refund immediately because I got stuck listening to a video on the upsell page with NO LINK for the original purchased product! That did not sit well with me….
Warmest regards
Mike
Hey Mike,
There are definitely some good deals in the downsells.
What I don’t recommend is making the downsell the EXACT same offer, just less expensive. That’s just not fair to the people that took action on the initial upsell.
Ryan
You can really benefit the customer with an upsell – espcially when it is complimentary and is positioned as a special deal just for them that they can either say yay or nay to!
Cheers,
Dave.
Hi Ryan,
Excellent advice, as usual. We actually go a step further and publish a “No Ambush Selling” policy on our sites.
One quick heads-up: what you’re referring to as “complimentary” should be “complementary”.
“Complimentary” in this context means free of charge.
Complimentary
adjective
1 expressing a compliment; praising or approving : Jennie was very complimentary about Kathy’s riding | complimentary remarks.
2 given or supplied free of charge : a complimentary bottle of wine.
On the other hand:
Complementary
adjective
1 completing; forming a complement : backyard satellite dishes and the complementary electronic components.
2 (of two or more different things) combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize each other’s qualities : three guitarists playing interlocking, complementary parts.
Could lead to confusion and misunderstanding — especially if you create the false impression that a complementary upsell/OTO is free, when it’s not!
Hope this helps.
John
Ahh upsells, I sometimes hate them, but sometimes its fun to see what I am offered,
I agree completely that an up sell must complement the product and not be unrelated or a missing part of the product…
9 up sells, WOW, those guys sure didn’t care about their customers
up sells should not just be a way to make more money, but to provide more value to the customer
awesome post!
Luis Carrillo